Conversas nada secretas
Em Londres prossegue inquérito à morte de Diana. Durante o dia de hoje foram interrogados vários profissionais dos serviços secretos identificados apenas por uma letra.
Através deste diálogo fiquei a saber que um motorista francês morto pode dar origem à abertura de um ficheiro pessoal no MI6, enquanto que membros vivos da família real britânica "nil":
"(...)
- MR BURNETT: Sir, we were about to look at one of the telegrams from November 1997. Mr Foley has the INQ number and it is coming up now. Perhaps I can just read it and ask you some questions as we go along. I think it will be the first and probably the only one of these that we will see. It is described as a 'in telegram', which we assume means coming into London headquarters.
- Coming in from Paris, yes.
- It is from Paris to London. The date we see is 5th November 1997. If we could go down, those parts that have not been redacted say this: 'Witness 7 spoke to DST [and we have heard who they are] on 4th November and saw him the following morning. The Ritz was still crawling with members of the Brigade Criminelle of the Police Judiciaire investigating the Princess of Wales' death.' Then there is a comment made, this presumably by witness 7, who sent this.
- Yes, that is correct.
- 'Presumably, as head of security there, Henri Paul had been a contact of DST and they would have such a capacity again.' So this is a telegram, and it was your electronic search of all telegrams that threw up the word 'Ritz' that we saw in paragraph 2?
- That is correct. I should just say that it would also -- you would pick it up on Henri Paul as well in a different search.
(...)
- Sir Richard Dearlove told us that he was confident that SIS were not eavesdropping/monitoring anything at all, surveillance to do with Diana and Dodi, and is that --
- No, nothing whatsoever.
- And you can confirm that?
- I can confirm that.
- Had there been any MI6 interest in the relationship between Dodi and Diana, would that have shown up in the records?
- Yes, it would.
- And there was nothing?
- It is not that I am trying to be rude in any way, there was just no interest. It is not our sort of thing.
- Therefore, the records, do they or do they not confirm Sir Richard Dearlove's evidence that SIS simply had no interest whatsoever in Dodi or in Diana or in them jointly?
- No, we had no interest whatsoever.
- As far as Henri Paul is concerned -- again, perhaps we can take this quite quickly -- did you check to see whether there was a card for Henri Paul?
- Yes, I did.
- Was there?
- Yes, there was. The card was originated -- as you can see from this telegram of 5th November, that has the 'Henri Paul' name in it and so the card was created as a result of this entry on the telegram.
- So we looked at the telegram, and that was 5th November 1997?
- Yes.
- The reference came about because of information picked up by someone in Paris long after the crash?
- Yes.
- So that is an example, is it, of how a card might come to be created --
- Yes, exactly.
- -- and in this instance, even in respect of someone who has sadly already died?
- Yes.
- Does it follow, then, that there was no card in existence for Henri Paul before 5th November?
- No, there was not a card for him pre.
- Had he been of interest to SIS or in any way worked for SIS, would there have been a card?
- Yes, there definitely would have been a card.
- Similarly, did you look to see if there was a P file on Henri Paul?
- Yes, I did.
- And was there?
- No, there was not.
- Did you carry out similar inquiries in respect of James Andanson?
- Yes, I did.
- With what result?
- Nil results.
- So no card and --
- I am so sorry, no card and no file.
- Thus, what is your conclusion in respect of a suggestion that Andanson was in touch in some way with SIS?
- He could not have been in touch with us without me finding a reference to him within one of our databases.
- Did you also do a similar search in respect of His Royal Highness, the Duke of Edinburgh?
- I did.
- With what result?
- No, result at all.
- So, similarly, he does not have a card nor does he have a P file?
- I would like to say at this stage, sir, that we don't hold either cards or files on the Royal Family. I could do a search on all of them.
- You have nothing?
- No.
- So as far as the Duke of Edinburgh is concerned, you say in your statement that you are aware that he occasionally made official visits to the service --
- Yes.
- -- but that that would not generate a card.
- No, it would not, no.
(...)"
Depois, hoje aprendi uma nova palavra em inglês: "Taradiddles":
"(...)
- Because all sorts of people may be telling taradiddles, mightn't they?
- I am sorry, may be telling ...?
- I am sorry, it is an old-fashioned phrase. Maybe a phrase which I know is familiar in the service, 'economic with the truth'. People may do that, may they not?
(...)"
Fiquei ainda a saber que pessoas contratadas pelos serviços secretos britânicos no exterior podem fazer o que bem lhes apetecer, desde que estejam no seu tempo livre...
"(...)
- But would that surprise you if somebody abroad, working for MI6, destroyed documents?
- I do not think you are talking about a member of the service there, are you, as a member of staff? You are talking about a contact of the service, and I would not be necessarily surprised about a contact of the service because what people do in their own time is what they do in their own time.
(...)"
Quando a conversa abordou a denúncia do antigo ex-agente do MI6, Richard tomlinson, sobre o plano para matar Milosevic, o interrogatório teve momentos dignos de registo (os links referentes às armas laser que a agente do MI6 diz desconhecer são da minha responsabilidade):
"(...)
- Was there an audit trail for Mr A's plan which has been referred to as the 'assassination of Milosevic'?
- No, because it never got past the idea stage in any way. It was absolutely considered a ridiculous idea.
- So 'ephemeral' is a synonym for 'deniability', isn't it?
- LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Keen, we did have evidence last week from Sir Richard Dearlove, and he distinguished quite clearly between deniability outside and deniability within the service, which was very firmly not something that was ever countenanced.
- With respect, sir, he did not tell us anything about a 'Special ephemeral messages' file that contained documentation pertaining to Mr A's plan for the assassination of Milosevic or some other Yugoslavian leader, so we don't know what his position would have been on that. Had he told us about it, we could have examined him about it.
- LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I thought he had covered the position.
- MR KEEN: What you have told us so far, Miss X, if I understand your evidence, is that the Secret Intelligence Service really do have documents containing proposals for, amongst other things, an assassination circulating around their offices without any record of their existence, the most obvious example being Mr A's proposal.
- Yes, as I have said, but I am happy to say again, it did not circulate around the office because it did not actually become a formal document.
- So if it does not become a formal document, as you describe it, no record of its existence can be found; is that your evidence?
- Yes, I think it is.
(...)
- Now, Mr Tomlinson, when he described this plan, explained that it referred to an individual who was of interest to the Secret Intelligence Service. He said it was Milosevic. The Secret Intelligence Service have countered that by saying that it was in fact another person in the then Yugoslavia.
- Yes, it is referring to another person anyway, yes.
- Has that other person since been assassinated, Miss X?
- I think that is probably edging closer to the area --
- MR TAM: Sir, I have thought about that for a moment because the 'neither confirm nor deny' principle would apply there as well.
- LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
(...)
- I am afraid I do not know anything about lasers at all.
- Let me put some suggestions to you. They will be very quick --
- MR TAM: Sir, if the witness has already indicated she does not know anything about it, then it is really badgering her to be trying to put specific examples.
- LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We had better hear what they are first, the questions.
- MR CROXFORD: In my most avuncular fashion, I doubt I could badger this witness. Something called an 'Outfit DEC', does it ring a bell?
- Terribly sorry, it does not, no.
- Or a 'Dazzle-sight LDS'?
- No, sorry.
- A red laser or a green laser?
- I am going to sound very thick again. I have heard of the word 'laser'.
- Very well. We are going to be in competition, you, me, the Coroner and Mr Mansfield before long, for being antediluvian. I am not going to go any further down lasers.
(...)
- The way you put it in the paper is: 'Only a complete idiot would have thought it somehow in his country's interest to assassinate a leader during peace talks sponsored by one's country, ie I would have had to get a submission through the FCO suggesting that we kill a leader identified at that time by FCO, Owen [that is Lord Owen], Vance [that is Cyrus Vance] as the only man in the Balkans with the smack to deliver a possible peace deal.' So is the point that you are making that it would have been completely irrational to contemplate doing anything adverse to Milosevic given the hopes that people had invested in him at the time?
- Yes, it would have just been completely absurd. The whole policy of HMG at that time -- and this can be checked from looking at the diplomatic negotiations at the time -- was to try to work with Milosevic. There was a belief, which may well have been misfounded, but it was a genuine belief underpinning British philosophy that Milosevic could secure a peace deal in Yugoslavia by using his influence over Karadzic, who was the guy that was in charge of the Bosnian Serbs who were behind a lot of the trouble there. So to take Milosevic out of the equation in 1993 would be absolutely absurd.
(...)"
Através deste diálogo fiquei a saber que um motorista francês morto pode dar origem à abertura de um ficheiro pessoal no MI6, enquanto que membros vivos da família real britânica "nil":
"(...)
- MR BURNETT: Sir, we were about to look at one of the telegrams from November 1997. Mr Foley has the INQ number and it is coming up now. Perhaps I can just read it and ask you some questions as we go along. I think it will be the first and probably the only one of these that we will see. It is described as a 'in telegram', which we assume means coming into London headquarters.
- Coming in from Paris, yes.
- It is from Paris to London. The date we see is 5th November 1997. If we could go down, those parts that have not been redacted say this: 'Witness 7 spoke to DST [and we have heard who they are] on 4th November and saw him the following morning. The Ritz was still crawling with members of the Brigade Criminelle of the Police Judiciaire investigating the Princess of Wales' death.' Then there is a comment made, this presumably by witness 7, who sent this.
- Yes, that is correct.
- 'Presumably, as head of security there, Henri Paul had been a contact of DST and they would have such a capacity again.' So this is a telegram, and it was your electronic search of all telegrams that threw up the word 'Ritz' that we saw in paragraph 2?
- That is correct. I should just say that it would also -- you would pick it up on Henri Paul as well in a different search.
(...)
- Sir Richard Dearlove told us that he was confident that SIS were not eavesdropping/monitoring anything at all, surveillance to do with Diana and Dodi, and is that --
- No, nothing whatsoever.
- And you can confirm that?
- I can confirm that.
- Had there been any MI6 interest in the relationship between Dodi and Diana, would that have shown up in the records?
- Yes, it would.
- And there was nothing?
- It is not that I am trying to be rude in any way, there was just no interest. It is not our sort of thing.
- Therefore, the records, do they or do they not confirm Sir Richard Dearlove's evidence that SIS simply had no interest whatsoever in Dodi or in Diana or in them jointly?
- No, we had no interest whatsoever.
- As far as Henri Paul is concerned -- again, perhaps we can take this quite quickly -- did you check to see whether there was a card for Henri Paul?
- Yes, I did.
- Was there?
- Yes, there was. The card was originated -- as you can see from this telegram of 5th November, that has the 'Henri Paul' name in it and so the card was created as a result of this entry on the telegram.
- So we looked at the telegram, and that was 5th November 1997?
- Yes.
- The reference came about because of information picked up by someone in Paris long after the crash?
- Yes.
- So that is an example, is it, of how a card might come to be created --
- Yes, exactly.
- -- and in this instance, even in respect of someone who has sadly already died?
- Yes.
- Does it follow, then, that there was no card in existence for Henri Paul before 5th November?
- No, there was not a card for him pre.
- Had he been of interest to SIS or in any way worked for SIS, would there have been a card?
- Yes, there definitely would have been a card.
- Similarly, did you look to see if there was a P file on Henri Paul?
- Yes, I did.
- And was there?
- No, there was not.
- Did you carry out similar inquiries in respect of James Andanson?
- Yes, I did.
- With what result?
- Nil results.
- So no card and --
- I am so sorry, no card and no file.
- Thus, what is your conclusion in respect of a suggestion that Andanson was in touch in some way with SIS?
- He could not have been in touch with us without me finding a reference to him within one of our databases.
- Did you also do a similar search in respect of His Royal Highness, the Duke of Edinburgh?
- I did.
- With what result?
- No, result at all.
- So, similarly, he does not have a card nor does he have a P file?
- I would like to say at this stage, sir, that we don't hold either cards or files on the Royal Family. I could do a search on all of them.
- You have nothing?
- No.
- So as far as the Duke of Edinburgh is concerned, you say in your statement that you are aware that he occasionally made official visits to the service --
- Yes.
- -- but that that would not generate a card.
- No, it would not, no.
(...)"
Depois, hoje aprendi uma nova palavra em inglês: "Taradiddles":
"(...)
- Because all sorts of people may be telling taradiddles, mightn't they?
- I am sorry, may be telling ...?
- I am sorry, it is an old-fashioned phrase. Maybe a phrase which I know is familiar in the service, 'economic with the truth'. People may do that, may they not?
(...)"
Fiquei ainda a saber que pessoas contratadas pelos serviços secretos britânicos no exterior podem fazer o que bem lhes apetecer, desde que estejam no seu tempo livre...
"(...)
- But would that surprise you if somebody abroad, working for MI6, destroyed documents?
- I do not think you are talking about a member of the service there, are you, as a member of staff? You are talking about a contact of the service, and I would not be necessarily surprised about a contact of the service because what people do in their own time is what they do in their own time.
(...)"
Quando a conversa abordou a denúncia do antigo ex-agente do MI6, Richard tomlinson, sobre o plano para matar Milosevic, o interrogatório teve momentos dignos de registo (os links referentes às armas laser que a agente do MI6 diz desconhecer são da minha responsabilidade):
"(...)
- Was there an audit trail for Mr A's plan which has been referred to as the 'assassination of Milosevic'?
- No, because it never got past the idea stage in any way. It was absolutely considered a ridiculous idea.
- So 'ephemeral' is a synonym for 'deniability', isn't it?
- LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Keen, we did have evidence last week from Sir Richard Dearlove, and he distinguished quite clearly between deniability outside and deniability within the service, which was very firmly not something that was ever countenanced.
- With respect, sir, he did not tell us anything about a 'Special ephemeral messages' file that contained documentation pertaining to Mr A's plan for the assassination of Milosevic or some other Yugoslavian leader, so we don't know what his position would have been on that. Had he told us about it, we could have examined him about it.
- LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I thought he had covered the position.
- MR KEEN: What you have told us so far, Miss X, if I understand your evidence, is that the Secret Intelligence Service really do have documents containing proposals for, amongst other things, an assassination circulating around their offices without any record of their existence, the most obvious example being Mr A's proposal.
- Yes, as I have said, but I am happy to say again, it did not circulate around the office because it did not actually become a formal document.
- So if it does not become a formal document, as you describe it, no record of its existence can be found; is that your evidence?
- Yes, I think it is.
(...)
- Now, Mr Tomlinson, when he described this plan, explained that it referred to an individual who was of interest to the Secret Intelligence Service. He said it was Milosevic. The Secret Intelligence Service have countered that by saying that it was in fact another person in the then Yugoslavia.
- Yes, it is referring to another person anyway, yes.
- Has that other person since been assassinated, Miss X?
- I think that is probably edging closer to the area --
- MR TAM: Sir, I have thought about that for a moment because the 'neither confirm nor deny' principle would apply there as well.
- LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
(...)
- I am afraid I do not know anything about lasers at all.
- Let me put some suggestions to you. They will be very quick --
- MR TAM: Sir, if the witness has already indicated she does not know anything about it, then it is really badgering her to be trying to put specific examples.
- LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We had better hear what they are first, the questions.
- MR CROXFORD: In my most avuncular fashion, I doubt I could badger this witness. Something called an 'Outfit DEC', does it ring a bell?
- Terribly sorry, it does not, no.
- Or a 'Dazzle-sight LDS'?
- No, sorry.
- A red laser or a green laser?
- I am going to sound very thick again. I have heard of the word 'laser'.
- Very well. We are going to be in competition, you, me, the Coroner and Mr Mansfield before long, for being antediluvian. I am not going to go any further down lasers.
(...)
- The way you put it in the paper is: 'Only a complete idiot would have thought it somehow in his country's interest to assassinate a leader during peace talks sponsored by one's country, ie I would have had to get a submission through the FCO suggesting that we kill a leader identified at that time by FCO, Owen [that is Lord Owen], Vance [that is Cyrus Vance] as the only man in the Balkans with the smack to deliver a possible peace deal.' So is the point that you are making that it would have been completely irrational to contemplate doing anything adverse to Milosevic given the hopes that people had invested in him at the time?
- Yes, it would have just been completely absurd. The whole policy of HMG at that time -- and this can be checked from looking at the diplomatic negotiations at the time -- was to try to work with Milosevic. There was a belief, which may well have been misfounded, but it was a genuine belief underpinning British philosophy that Milosevic could secure a peace deal in Yugoslavia by using his influence over Karadzic, who was the guy that was in charge of the Bosnian Serbs who were behind a lot of the trouble there. So to take Milosevic out of the equation in 1993 would be absolutely absurd.
(...)"
Etiquetas: Diana, MI6, Richard Tomlinson
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